Chronic Logic

Hello Zatikon Members,

We at Chronic Logic are looking for feedback from everyone in the community. We've come up with a few ideas that we would like to run past you.  

First of all, we are trying to start a blog about Zatikon. We hope some of you will help us by participating in the blog and give us feedback on how to improve upon our ideas.  

The ideas:

We are looking for at least 3 bloggers. We see that most of you participate in the forums and we would appreciate it if a couple of you would be interested in becoming a blogger. Our plan for a blog would include an experienced Zatikon player, an inexperienced player, and an experienced player to talk about specific unit strategies.

Experienced Zatikon Player (Blogger 1): This would be the most experienced Zatikon player that would like to participate. This player would preferably post about his or her in game experiences. This can be something like a unit combination that they have not thought of, how they made a comeback  in a game, how they are still improving and learning, or how they lost a game.

Inexperienced Zatikon Player (Blogger 2): This blogger should have little to no experience, but the structure of their blog would be similar to that of the experienced Zatikon player.  The beginner blog would primarily focus on the bloggers learning experiences, challenges, and successes. Some examples of this would be what kind of strategies does the blogger use, how their game experience is going and what are new things are they learning each week.  

Strategy blogger: This player will go in depth about units and how to use them. This would differ from the topic on the Zatikon forums due to the player talking about unit specific strategies, rather than just listing its abilities. An example of this would be describing what kind of strategy to better utilize a given unit versus other units, how to maximize its value or what to combine it with to make it more effective.  

Additional Info: We would like to receive input from multiple players who would like to contribute through email. They would submit a description or combination they have found successful and describe how they set it up. They may use pictures and examples to prove that it works. They may also share views how this unit may be improved or may be too powerful. In the end, we will take bits here and there and piece them together to form one article on the weekly unit on a one to two week bases.  

Also if anyone has a creative name for this new blog, please send it over.

If there is anything to add or improve upon, please send them to zatikon@chroniclogic.com

Another idea we have been working on and hopefully all of you will be excited about is a tournament. We are still working on this idea but we would like to get some feedback, such as how many of you in the community will participate/be interested in this tournament. Right now we are thinking about a bracket system which in order to advance to the next round you must win 2 out of 3 games or a round-robin tournament where everyone will play each other at least once. And yes there will be prizes. But it is still in brainstorming stage but may be coming soon depending on all of you. If there are any ideas you would like to add-on or opinions, please feel free to by emailing the address given above.

Also, if any of you can help with your various backgrounds. We are looking for some outside marketing advice, such as how to reach potential players and get them to join in this exciting game. Thank you all and have a wonderful day.

Please post any feedback here! Thanks

Regarding the idea of a tournament:

The basic structure of the tournament you suggested would likely be problematic, as there probably isn't a specific time when we can all play at once.  

My particular idea for a tournament would be this; during a 'registration' period, players select 1-3 constructed armies, which they will be locked into(On this note-the army archive in the mac version still crashes the game), for the tournament.  When the tournament begins, players will receive a number of tokens.  They can then click on a 'tournament mode' button, choose how many tokens they're wagering on that game.  Another player makes the same decision, with the smallest token gamble being accepted(By this, I mean that if player 1 is  willing to wager 3 tokens, and player 2 is only willing to wager 2 tokens, then both players can only win/lose 2 tokens.

The player with the most tokens at the end of the tournament period(month long periods, with a week in between for example) wins.  Of course, the tournament would need to be restricted to players who had bought at least one expansion, to prevent people from creating 'fake' accounts to gather up tokens.  It would probably also be ideal to implement some sort of 'cooldown' on playing the same player, or even for playing a tournament round against anyone(So that you can play a player perhaps twice during a tournament), so that people who play less aren't at a substantial disadvantage.

Oh, and a shiny border around our names/rank, a title before our chat, and a unit useable only in coop/single would be neat prizes.

The tournament is a great idea! as for strategy I wouldve love to handle  it but things are rather hectic at this time so I have to take a bow and exit the stage on that one, as for the tournament thingy, it would indeed be hard for people around the globe to be on at the exact same time, afterall what is a perfectly reasonably time for many might be in the middle of the night for others, as for prices, how about being allowed to name the next unit that you make?

I personally wouldn't mind seeing an identical random mode added(not as a replacement for the current mode), although I'm not sure I would play it-I personally prefer to occasionally lose a match because I got an unworkable draw than to have every high ranked game be a protracted stalemate.

If you did add such a mode, please remove dracolich from the possible units to draw.  Dracolich v. Dracolich is a game of reversi, since units can be resurrected indefinitely. I think I played an hour and a half long game against Unique when I drew dracolich, and he drew a mimic(I somehow won, but it just wasn't worth it).  There are other units that I could mention that would essentially drive players to click the 'draw' button, but the dracolich is the worst offender in that respect.

On a similar note, it would be nice if mason were a rarer draw in random-it also makes for very protracted game, and no unit shuts down so many other units for such a low unit cost.

Quote from: Lunaraia on November 19, 2009, 03:01:14 AM
as for prices, how about being allowed to name the next unit that you make?

If they implement a more 'campaign-style' single player/coop at some point, getting an opposing 'hero-unit' named after your in-game name would be neat.

Hello Josiah, and anybody else on the forum that is going to read this (below I pasted my original feedback). Thanks for the response.

Well that all sounds good. It would be great if you could introduce the option of identical random armies again. I think this game could recruit a lot of young generation chess players like myself, but chess players are really into their equality at the start of the game which they believe is an absolute necessity for top competition, and would really appreciate its reintroduction.

It definitely would be a great investment to get a play by email/offline option going. The major Chess sites all have this and people from these sites would definitely be interested in a game that was similar to chess and had a similar layout.

If you introduce the identical random and play by email then I'll advertise your game on my chess community and the other major ones, add your game to some chess program reviews on Amazon, and try to spread it around as best as I can. Anybody reading, this game needs more advertisement and deserves to be played. Let's get the word going!

It seems quite difficult to find your game on the internet. I found it by just typing 'chess evolved' in Google and it was the first game that popped up. I think more and more people are looking for more turn based strategy games that don't involve a bunch of micromanagement, which can make the game slow and boring. I think a popular search request in Google is 'turn-based strategy games' or 'turn-based strategy games like chess' but your site doesn't seem to pop up close to any of the results from these searches. Games that pop up are Conqueror or Lost Admiral Returns, and some of the mainstream ones. I don't think these games can compete with Zatikon but they pop up first. You probably know more about how Google does its ranking then me. I think it has to do with how many links go to the site or something. But typing 'chess evolved' popped your site up at the top. Getting your game to pop up first in the search requests above will definitely be a big plus for the game. But I guess all game creators dream of having their game come up on top of a Google search like that.

Anyway Josiah, and fellow Zatikon players, play on and spread the word!

 
Sean Gainford wrote:
> Hello
>
I would like to compliment you on your game Zatikon. I'm a big shuffle chess player however I have been looking for a game for awhile that could offer similar strategic depth but with added creativity and complexity involving the power of contemporary computer technology. I believe your game has the potential to do this. I just purchased your ad-on Crusades and can't wait to explore the over 40 new units!
>
> I have just a few suggestions though. The randomly generated army option I think would be better if both players ended up with the same randomly generated army. If you get two different randomly selected armies then one player could have an unfair advantage. There are definitely superior units to others in the game and a player with randomly superior units will have the advantage. Making each player have the same randomly generated army at the beginning will put things on equal ground. I play chess960, which is the most popular shuffle chess played, and you can have the positions randomly set up, but each player will have the same random position so that there is no unfair advantage. A player that would have Rooks on the central files and Bishops on the ends compared to a player that has his Rooks stuck on the end files and Bishops stuck in the middle would have the advantage so this type of thing is eliminated by making both sides have the same random setup. 
>
> I also would love to see a play be email option with no time constraints. At the moment when some distraction in the house happens, like screaming kids or a nagging partner, or just somebody knocking on the front door, I have to stop playing, which basically means I lose the game because of the time constraints. Playing by email would eliminate that. Also for people who work all day and can't really play the game until the evening would not have to worry about playing a whole game in one sitting when they might be really tired but could just concentrate on a few moves and then finish the game the next day or over the next few days. Also playing by email will allow more in depth thinking and enable players to really discover the true power of the units and game play because they will have far more time to spend on each turn. And of course you can still continue to play the live version or turn your email game into a live game whenever you want, as long as the opponent is
online, or turn a live game into an email game when ever you want.
>
> To challenge somebody by email you could create it so that a player could make a public challenge that any other player could accept. The challenge would be broadcasted on the server and would stay there until somebody accepted. You could also add an option in which the challenger can select a rating range that would limit who could accept his challenge. So for example a player could put a public challenge out for any player with a rating of 1400-1500 to accept the challenge. This means lower level players don't have to go up against top rated players and can slowly advance their skills first, and also top rated players don't have to waste time with players that are beneath them.
>
> You could also set up your payment differently, like instead of getting money for the add-ons you could actually make every unit available to everybody, however full members, those who buy a membership that cost something like $9.99 a year, would be able to play up to 10 games at once, and play up to 10 tournaments at once also. With email play it is possible to have so many games going a once. So you're not really sitting around waiting for your opponent to move because one of your 20 opponents will definitely have moved and you'll never be lost for play. And that's another thing - creating tournament play that players could actually set up themselves. People who were not full members would be allowed to only play one game at a time and can't take part in tournaments. And you could only make half of the units available to them also and there rating would not be able to rise or fall either.     
>
> Another additional feature that I think would be a plus would be that players would be able to go over their past games. The ability to study their past games would increase a player's strength and the strategic level of the game.
>
> Also I think setting up a Zatikonopedia would be a very good idea, like Civilization 4 has. In this players could search out all the units you have and find information about them. You could have a short history of the unit and then finish off with its strengths, powers and weakness. That would give the game more of a cult following.
>
> Many of the layout ideas above come from the chess site I belong to, www.mychess.de  I think if you adopted a similar layout then Zatikon could move from being good to becoming great and could take over Chess.
>
>
> Anyway, a very good game you have created with huge potential and thank you very much for creating it. 
>
>
> Best Regards
>
> Sean Gainford

These all sound like great ideas, I appreciate all of it, I finding that the google search idea is very good, it would be great if Zatikon came up first under those searches. Thanks all...hopefully more people will post or email with more feedback

Another Idea would be a scenario Mode, where you and the oponent have units set out in a certain way and with restrictions of movement like cliffs and sutch, you know give the game a battlefield feel, and preset units there for the players to fight with, depending on the protection of you units you get different kinds, like archer on a cliss would be able to rain fire down on any meelee units that would be unable to retaliate since they are at the bottom of said cliff, and add forests and such that lower range of ranged units or hides enemies unitl you are next to them

Before I get ideas, how do I become a blogger?  Are you providing a URL for us to blog, or you want us to create/set it all up via any particular blog site.

If you haven't guessed it by now, Zatikon's biggest problem is lack of players.  This means, the game needs to support more 1 player modes and less development on the 2v2 mode (despite how much I love it).  A simple way to do this is on top of the normal single player mode a new single player mode could be created: boss mode.  Boss mode could work in many ways, but the simplest is the mode ends when the 'boss' is dead.  Depending upon your level, the 'boss' would have multiple powers.  Also, boss mode should mean a different initial startup position from the AI.  Possably it starts out with all its units on the board or a much more limited # of units kinda deal and more structures possably.  If this idea is too much work to develop, try to make something more similiar to single player, but set it up as a new single/coop player mode.

Due to the fact too many units are uber powerful in the game, a mirror random mode would also help freshen up the game too.  Either way, it's clear the game needs another mode!

Tournaments really seem like a note worthy idea, but I don't see much point due to lack of player pool.  Unless tournaments can all be self made inside the game, it's really too much to see player's setup matches.  If you want a SUPER easy way to setup your own tournaments, this site is free:
http://www.bracketmaker.com

Also, I think Zatikon could use more supportive things to help use your money with.  Things that help edit/cnhange your avatar.  See this game's model for reference: http://www.kongregate.com/games/urbansquall/battalion-arena

And now Marketing/Advertising.  The chess angle definately seems like a note worthy idea, but what are big name chess sites that would help let zatikon be advertised on?  Small numbers can help in readvertising on game sites like www.jayisgames.com and www.rockpapershotgun.com But, I suspect the big ways come from spending big budgets on things like yahoo mail/gmail advertising, other popular gaming sites like warcraft, and elsewise.  If someone really wanted to reach a big audience, I would also strongly reccomend sending people to gaming or animation like conventions with free CD's of zatikon on a disk.  It's a great way to spread awarement to a game.

A random set up army for both sides in single player mode against the AI should be set up (and again, mirrored armies so that there are no inequalities, which is paramount for top competition). At the moment I don't have much incentive to change my constructed army against the AI, incorporating weaker units, especially with my powerful Dracolich. But it is very important to play with the weaker units so that you can discover how they work. If not then when you go up against somebody in Random and get stuck with a bunch of weaker units, they will be even weaker because you haven't fully learnt how they work yet. If you could choose a random army with the AI then that would make it much easier to explore different units, and I think make the game more exciting.  If it was mirrored armies with the AI, and with other players in random mode, then that would make things equal at the start of the game. At the moment, if we use the analogy of a competitive race, a player who gets a superior set of units in Random mode at the beginning basically has the equivalent of like a 5 second lead from the starting blocks. It is very hard to catch up to that and beat your opponent. This unfair advantage needs to be eliminated. But also, and maybe more importantly, by having mirrored armies you can see how the AI or other players use the same units you have. For beginners this is very important – learning from better, more experienced players.

I think it is very important to help beginners out in this game as much as possible, because if you don't then you will lose the players when they get frustrated. Then the game doesn't spread. The best way for a beginner to learn is to face a better player then himself. But I don't think this is happening to its full effect in Zatikon, mostly because the armies are not mirrored. If I'm playing a better rated Chess960 player and he pulls out some crazy, hard core combination and destroys me, I go 'WOW!', for he did that with the same pieces/units I possessed. The weaker player then realises and learns what he could potentially do with his own pieces/units. He will then get better.  But for a beginner in Zaitkon it is really overwhelming with how many different units there are and how many different skills each unit possesses. I play somebody in random and they have a completely different army them me, then when they beat me, which has happened the three times I tried playing random, I didn't go 'WOW! That was amazing'. I more like went 'that sucks' because my opponent had all different units and made me feel overwhelmed and made me just think I have no idea what the hell is going on in this game. This kind of reaction makes new players leave and never comeback.

Now I imagine experienced players reading this saying, well, you are just going to have to study the units more. Yes, that's true. However I am a beginner with a beginners mind set at the moment, and even though this game resembles Chess in some respects, it is still very alien to me. I think this game has huge potential and I am thinking about the games retention rate here and its propagation. Top Zatikon players, and probably the game developers, have forgotten how it is to be a beginner in this game, since you have played it so much and have been so involved with its development. At the moment I'm coming from an outside perspective, and I can tell you, from a beginner's perspective this game is overwhelming. I think a beginner who loses to the AI or to a more experienced player in random play with mirrored armies is more likely to be far less overwhelmed and will learn more, by seeing how the AI or experienced player used the same units he possessed. I believe this learning and less overwhelming will keep new players rather than having them become frustrated and go and never come back.

This game is hugely complex. I don't even think the top rated players have even touched the surface of this game yet.

Let's compare Zaitkon to Chess, since they resemble each other. Chess has been around for thousands of years and has been analysed and studied thoroughly, especially in the last 100 years. However mastering Chess can take a life time and can only really be done with extreme amount of play and study. And this is with only six different units – Pond, Bishop, Knight, Rook, Queen, and King. There are whole Chess books just about how to use your Bishops to their best effects.

Now to compare that with Zatikon: Zatikon has over a 100 different units!  And I would argue that the weakest unit in Zatikon is actually more complex then the strongest unit in Chess. Of course Zatikon has not been around as long as Chess so it hasn't been analysed or evaluated like Chess has. A lot of this will just come with time. However there is a big set back to this game which will stop it being analysed and evaluated to its full extent, and stop it being as popular or more popular then Chess -- The time constraints. It is a real blow to the game because it doesn't give you the time to discover the full potential of the game. The time constraints really need to be scrapped. At the moment the game is like speed Chess, not real Chess, and that is just sloppy play. Some will disagree with me and probably will say that they don't want to sit around for hours and wait for their opponent to move. However if email play is set up then that won't be a problem (Please see my other comment above on email play). I personally think this game is so complex that it really can't even be properly played unless it is played by email. And for beginning players, who are already overwhelmed with how many units there are and all the units' special skills, when added with hardly any time to make a move and having to rush their move, they just feel inundated.  

To me if the playing mode is not changed and the time constraints not scrapped then the game will only ever be superficial and will not exercise the higher cognitive abilities, which will be a shame, because this game could really be something special.  At the moment, with the time constraints, you mostly spend your time just reacting rather than doing deep planning. This game shouldn't be just some reaction shoot 'em up video game. If there are no time constraints then the game will develop the higher cognitive abilities. With this Zatikon will move from being played on the board, to being played in the mind.

Quote from: sgainford on November 25, 2009, 11:11:29 AM
However there is a big set back to this game which will stop it being analysed and evaluated to its full extent, and stop it being as popular or more popular then Chess -- The time constraints. It is a real blow to the game because it doesn't give you the time to discover the full potential of the game. The time constraints really need to be scrapped. At the moment the game is like speed Chess, not real Chess, and that is just sloppy play. Some will disagree with me and probably will say that they don't want to sit around for hours and wait for their opponent to move. However if email play is set up then that won't be a problem (Please see my other comment above on email play). I personally think this game is so complex that it really can't even be properly played unless it is played by email. And for beginning players, who are already overwhelmed with how many units there are and all the units' special skills, when added with hardly any time to make a move and having to rush their move, they just feel inundated.  

Eliminating the time constraints is likely to alienate more people than it would draw in;  very few people actually enjoy sitting at their screen for ten minutes doing nothing while their opponent meticulously analyzes(and probably overanalyzes) everything. Back when I played in a chess club, even the most enthusiastic players would take out the timer, because they didn't feel like, or couldn't, play a very protracted game.  I'm also not enthusiastic about the potential being locked into a game when an opponent goes afk indefinitely. While I wouldn't protest a game mode where you can 'save' a game, uploading a move whenever you log in, 'email Zatikon' with a playerbase this size wouldn't work.  Having people in the chatroom when you first log into the game is a comfort, and creates a sense of community when you regularly interact in continuous time with other individuals.

It's pretty rare that I feel the time constraint is inhibiting;  I usually finish plays with 30 seconds or more left on the clock, and am not sure what I would do with the remainder.  The duration of my opponent's turn is perfectly adequate to develop a strategy.

Long time ago, I actually made a crucial reccomendation: Trainer mode.  Yes, this game is VERY OVERWHELMING.  I think it actually has a very negative effect on an average player's mind.  I don't know how to "dumb down" the game, but if there was a (1) good youtube like tutorial and (2) a mode of play where you could see how each piece moves, attacks and such.  In this mode, there would only be 1 piece on the entire board.  A testing zone.  Even after saying all this I feel I am underegagerating that this game needs to be more newbie friendly.  So it's a combination of

1. Cleaner/simpler GUI
2. Test zone to see how each piece moves/clicks
3. YouTube-like video tutorials
4. Other?

Quote from: mongolian on November 25, 2009, 03:58:46 AM
Before I get ideas, how do I become a blogger?  Are you providing a URL for us to blog, or you want us to create/set it all up via any particular blog site.

If you haven't guessed it by now, Zatikon's biggest problem is lack of players.  This means, the game needs to support more 1 player modes and less development on the 2v2 mode (despite how much I love it).  A simple way to do this is on top of the normal single player mode a new single player mode could be created: boss mode.  Boss mode could work in many ways, but the simplest is the mode ends when the 'boss' is dead.  Depending upon your level, the 'boss' would have multiple powers.  Also, boss mode should mean a different initial startup position from the AI.  Possably it starts out with all its units on the board or a much more limited # of units kinda deal and more structures possably.  If this idea is too much work to develop, try to make something more similiar to single player, but set it up as a new single/coop player mode.

Due to the fact too many units are uber powerful in the game, a mirror random mode would also help freshen up the game too.  Either way, it's clear the game needs another mode!

We set up a blog on blogger. We will provide you with an invite which you will use to make a user name. Just shoot an email over for which position you would like... and again thanks for the ideas