The easy way to do that bit is to climb up the ramp before the rock starts rolling, go heavy and smash through the wall. Now get into the hole and go slippery. With some luck the rock will push you down the hole without need of endless rocking back and forth. Unfortunately if you're unlucky it might squash you dead. Still, it seems to work a fair amount of the time.
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#2
Gish Support / Massive amount of RAM
June 04, 2004, 01:17:05 AM
That really is an enormous amount of RAM. Do the intro, story and ending screens remain loaded the whole time? What about the animations for enemies not present in the current level? And is it really necessary to make the background textures so huge when there's no detail in them? I suppose the OS should be able to page out the unused stuff effectively, but I don't really trust it to get it right. (Mind you, I register about 200Mb-ish here, not 300Mb-ish.)
#3
Gish Support / Very Poor Frame-Rate
June 04, 2004, 02:47:39 AM
Woohoo! I got custom drivers from http://www.omegacorner.com/index_ati.html" target='_blank'>http://www.omegacorner.com/index_ati.html and they work great. No thanks to HP. I can play at 1024x768 (the resolution of the flat-panel) no bother. Even the horrific Collection Level 5 only slows down the frame-rate a bit, and is perfectly playable. A donation will be winging its way to those helpful people at Omega Corner.
#4
Gish Support / Very Poor Frame-Rate
June 04, 2004, 02:16:28 AM
Tried turning off music - no real change. I'm going to try making sure there's nothing running but Gish and Explorer and see if it works better. I know the shared memory damages performance, but I thought Gish would be a lot more lightweight than it is. Is there any chance future patches will lessen the burden on my poor computer?
#5
Gish Support / Very Poor Frame-Rate
June 04, 2004, 12:23:38 AM
I have a Radeon Mobility 345M in a Compaq Presario 2500. I'm getting very poor frame rates in Gish, despite trying many different combinations of resolution, colour depth and full-screen-ness. If there's more than a few light-sources on the screen then it really gets awful (unplayable, can't be more than 5 or 6fps). I have the most recent drivers HP have released, but they're quite old, and the standard ATI Catalyst package won't recognise the device. Is this an OpenGL drivers issue? Or is Gish just *really* demanding?
Full Specs:
Presario 2500
Celeron 2.8GHz
448Mb RAM (=512Mb-64Mb shared with GFX card)
Radeon Mobility 345M 64Mb
Windows XP Home
Video Display Driver Verson 7.91-030625a-010287C
I never expected this computer to handle high-spec games, but I'm surprised that something as simple looking as Gish should trouble it. Is there any way I can turn off the lighting effects, or otherwise tweak the settings to make it run faster?
Weeble.
Full Specs:
Presario 2500
Celeron 2.8GHz
448Mb RAM (=512Mb-64Mb shared with GFX card)
Radeon Mobility 345M 64Mb
Windows XP Home
Video Display Driver Verson 7.91-030625a-010287C
I never expected this computer to handle high-spec games, but I'm surprised that something as simple looking as Gish should trouble it. Is there any way I can turn off the lighting effects, or otherwise tweak the settings to make it run faster?
Weeble.
#6
General Discussion / Stuff I want to see in the next patch
August 26, 2004, 12:28:28 AM
Ach, since you insist:
* Levels are made by laying down blocks of any size or shape. Then, each block can be selected and have its properties changed - these would be Friction, Strength (0 would be default, and make the object invincible), Whether it can move, Weight.
There appear to be two main classes of blocks in the game: those that can be any size, which can move and deform; and those that are fixed in a static grid, that can be broken. Off-hand I can recall no movable, breakable blocks. I would expect that these different classes of block will require different treatment in an editor.
* A trigger editor, ala most strategy games. This, I believe, would be the simplest and most intuitive way to do the complex stuff. Basically, every trigger has:
Events - the thing that starts the trigger off. It could be the start of the level, pressing a button, or gish moving into a certain area
Actions - what happens. It could be a dialogue running, a door opening, or the end of the level
Conditions - when an event occurs, these conditions are checked. If they are false, the triggers actions are not fired. For example, suppose you have an automatic door in your level that opens when gish comes within a certain distance of it and closes when he leaves... but the player has to turn it on before it will function, by pressing a button. The event would be 'Gish comes within x distance of door y', the condition would be 'Button z is pressed', and the action would be 'Door y opens'
I really think this requires new code in the game and not just the editor. For example, dialogs always happen at the start of a level - it's quite possible that it isn't currently possible to trigger them from a switch or whatever. Also, I don't recall observing any conditions in the sense you describe. There are no buttons that enable other actions. It looks more like there is just one trigger - "object in area", and one action - "move object". I might be wrong - it's possible that the game has a more high-level understanding of buttons and switches, but I don't see why it would need one. There's also no guarantee that the level ending conditions are flexible - these could be hard-coded for all we know.
Also, you've missed out one of the most important features needed to make levels - object constraints. Various objects are fixed to each other or to points in space throughout the game. Without a means to edit this you'd not be able to make drawbridges, mining carts, rope-bridges, swings and most of the other interesting features in the game.
I still don't think I have close to a complete understanding of the simulation. I think that it's pretty pointless for us to suggest how a level editor should function when we don't know what capabilities exist for it to access.
Still, you have some good points - it should be easy to make doors with switches and stuff like that, without having to manually specify all the objects, joints and whatnot that go into them. Hopefully there will be some kind of prefab system. If they're nice they'll even let us make our own prefab contraptions.
If you're going for usability, I'd suggest you probably want to avoid making the user "type in a distance" when this kind of thing can be more naturally measured by having a resizeable vector appear on-screen.
* Levels are made by laying down blocks of any size or shape. Then, each block can be selected and have its properties changed - these would be Friction, Strength (0 would be default, and make the object invincible), Whether it can move, Weight.
There appear to be two main classes of blocks in the game: those that can be any size, which can move and deform; and those that are fixed in a static grid, that can be broken. Off-hand I can recall no movable, breakable blocks. I would expect that these different classes of block will require different treatment in an editor.
* A trigger editor, ala most strategy games. This, I believe, would be the simplest and most intuitive way to do the complex stuff. Basically, every trigger has:
Events - the thing that starts the trigger off. It could be the start of the level, pressing a button, or gish moving into a certain area
Actions - what happens. It could be a dialogue running, a door opening, or the end of the level
Conditions - when an event occurs, these conditions are checked. If they are false, the triggers actions are not fired. For example, suppose you have an automatic door in your level that opens when gish comes within a certain distance of it and closes when he leaves... but the player has to turn it on before it will function, by pressing a button. The event would be 'Gish comes within x distance of door y', the condition would be 'Button z is pressed', and the action would be 'Door y opens'
I really think this requires new code in the game and not just the editor. For example, dialogs always happen at the start of a level - it's quite possible that it isn't currently possible to trigger them from a switch or whatever. Also, I don't recall observing any conditions in the sense you describe. There are no buttons that enable other actions. It looks more like there is just one trigger - "object in area", and one action - "move object". I might be wrong - it's possible that the game has a more high-level understanding of buttons and switches, but I don't see why it would need one. There's also no guarantee that the level ending conditions are flexible - these could be hard-coded for all we know.
Also, you've missed out one of the most important features needed to make levels - object constraints. Various objects are fixed to each other or to points in space throughout the game. Without a means to edit this you'd not be able to make drawbridges, mining carts, rope-bridges, swings and most of the other interesting features in the game.
I still don't think I have close to a complete understanding of the simulation. I think that it's pretty pointless for us to suggest how a level editor should function when we don't know what capabilities exist for it to access.
Still, you have some good points - it should be easy to make doors with switches and stuff like that, without having to manually specify all the objects, joints and whatnot that go into them. Hopefully there will be some kind of prefab system. If they're nice they'll even let us make our own prefab contraptions.
If you're going for usability, I'd suggest you probably want to avoid making the user "type in a distance" when this kind of thing can be more naturally measured by having a resizeable vector appear on-screen.
#7
General Discussion / Stuff I want to see in the next patch
August 22, 2004, 03:34:47 AM
Hmm... I wrote a reply, but either I forgot to post it or it got moderated away. I'm going to assume it was my ineptness, since I don't think I said anything untoward.
I think Jacius said much the same thing - the level editor's features will doubtless reflect the existing structure of levels. So far as I can tell, that's a few layers of square grids of tiles, plus a whole bunch of special objects, like light-sources, ropes, movable blocks and enemies. My point is, the features of the level editor will be determined by the features of the game, not vice-versa.
I think Jacius said much the same thing - the level editor's features will doubtless reflect the existing structure of levels. So far as I can tell, that's a few layers of square grids of tiles, plus a whole bunch of special objects, like light-sources, ropes, movable blocks and enemies. My point is, the features of the level editor will be determined by the features of the game, not vice-versa.
#8
General Discussion / questiono about 4-7
August 08, 2004, 10:19:15 PM
Hold down jump instead of heavy. Don't worry, it's almost as good at stopping you from getting squashed.
#9
General Discussion / Who has beat Gish?
May 28, 2004, 06:29:06 PM| Quote (Shinryuu @ May 27 2004,8:25) |
| The first secret level is in the sewers, I found it by accident. |
Does it count as a secret in the count at the end of the level? I think I've only one of those left to find in the Sewers, but I've not yet found a secret level.
I also found what looks like a Bridge Construction Set box on one of the Rapture levels. Does it do anything, or do you just look at it?
#10
General Discussion / Who has beat Gish?
June 05, 2004, 04:31:04 AM
I went through again to try to get the other ending (the bad one). For a terrible moment I thought my work was for nothing when the I accidentally nudged the cage and it got jammed. I had to jump up and down on top of it to make sure I got the ending I wanted. Why do I feel less than heroic?
#11
General Discussion / Any work done on a new patch?
August 06, 2004, 02:32:47 AM
Phew. That was nasty, but I finished ludicrous mode too. Mind you, I don't think I could have done it without the warp to 4-3. I'm not sure why, but in the unlocked mode the Mario warp runs painfully slowly. (I did have to revert to slightly less up-to-date video drivers due to system stability issues, but the Mario warp still plays fine in normal mode.)
#12
General Discussion / Thoughts of a new player
May 29, 2004, 01:17:58 AM
Oh, I definitely found that I was getting better at making it throught early levels in a chapter as I kept playing. And this is obviously a game aimed at gamers who remember when all games were like that, with you struggling to complete the entire game having 3 or fewer lives and no continues. The problem is, that by setting up a system where lives are very precious, it becomes very frustrating to lose them randomly. Certain parts of the game (for example, the wrecking-ball at the start of one of the rapture levels, or places where you need to get onto the ceiling above a pit of lave) can easily go terribly wrong because an enemy moves at the wrong time, or Gish has a tiny amount too much or little momentum.
While it is justifiable to lengthen a game by making the player replay segments after dying, you need to strike some kind of balance. Bear in mind that this strongly penalises less skilled players. Say you've got 6 levels in an episode. And suppose a poor player dies about 60% of the time he plays a level, while a better player dies only about 40% of the time he plays a level. The poor player will succeed in completing the episode using 5 lives or less about 17% of the time. That means he'll take on (mean) average between 5 and 6 attempts before he completes the episode. The better player will succeed in completing the episode about 63% of the time. He'll take on average between 1 and 2 attempts. That's a huge difference for only a slight variation in skill level. (I can provide the spreadsheet of this if anybody really wants it.)
In short, the further a player has to go back when killed, the more of a difference his or her skill level makes to progress. In small amounts this ensures that skill is rewarded, in large amounts the game stops being fun for a proportion of players.
While it is justifiable to lengthen a game by making the player replay segments after dying, you need to strike some kind of balance. Bear in mind that this strongly penalises less skilled players. Say you've got 6 levels in an episode. And suppose a poor player dies about 60% of the time he plays a level, while a better player dies only about 40% of the time he plays a level. The poor player will succeed in completing the episode using 5 lives or less about 17% of the time. That means he'll take on (mean) average between 5 and 6 attempts before he completes the episode. The better player will succeed in completing the episode about 63% of the time. He'll take on average between 1 and 2 attempts. That's a huge difference for only a slight variation in skill level. (I can provide the spreadsheet of this if anybody really wants it.)
In short, the further a player has to go back when killed, the more of a difference his or her skill level makes to progress. In small amounts this ensures that skill is rewarded, in large amounts the game stops being fun for a proportion of players.
#13
General Discussion / Thoughts of a new player
May 27, 2004, 11:11:05 PM
Regarding the download, yes, some people will be better located on the internet, have better connections or better timing. I'm simply highlighting that it is a big download that could probably have been kept smaller, and could definitely have been made easier to download. I would have found it impossible to download on the dial-up connection I used to have, and which most of my friends still do.
I've finished it now, and yes, those hell levels were the hardest. Rest assured that I do really like the physics concept, and I'm not posting here to bash the game - I'm trying to provide valid criticism because I want to see it get better. I know this isn't Sonic or Puggsy, and I don't expect the low level of difficulty found in those games.
I enjoy manuevering Gish across the tiny crates hanging from cranes. I enjoy figuring out the puzzles involving blocks and switches. I like figuring out how to use my momentum in those U-shaped pipes on the church level. I like bounding from falling pillar to falling pillar. I like being in the right place doing the right thing at the right time to get the good ending.
I don't enjoy getting killed repeatedly as part of the learning process then being forced to pile those same cubes down that same pipe as last time, just to get back to where I was. I don't enjoy the feeling of lethargy as I try to jump. I don't enjoy losing precious lives because of butterfly effects when an enemy is in just the wrong place, when a rope snaps that wasn't my fault or when Gish simply refuses to crawl from a vertical surface down onto a ceiling. I'm not saying that the game should never kill me, but I want a fair shot to a) see that I'm in danger and b) be able to do something about it.
What would make me happy? Maybe up and down could have a bigger effect on Gish's shape. That way it'd be easier to quickly get the squashing needed to jump. Or perhaps pressing jump when static could squish Gish (anybody ever play Ricochet on the BBC Micro?) and he'd jump when it was released. That would help ensure that enemies at close range were still a threat. Might be messy to implement, but I suppose it's a thought for a sequel.
I'd keep the elaborate puzzles that are high on thinking, low on threat and quite laborious to be just before the boss level. That way you don't need to do the same puzzle you've solved before over and over again, every time you die from the more acrobatics oriented levels.
This one's not even a modification to the game: document the most important feature of being heavy - it makes you far more resistant to being squashed and killed by the various spring-loaded platforms and high-speed U-bends. Perhaps there could also be a marking on the floor - like yellow and black hazard bars, or blood splatters to indicate these potentially dangerous areas, so the player isn't upset when the floor unexpectedly launches him upwards, killing him with the acceleration.
Also, I maintain that there are a number of hazards that you cannot hope to survive the first time you meet them. A number of the areas that spring you up unexpectedly can kill you outright. That room in the church level that completely fills up with the little enemies - I fluked it once by killing them all, but otherwise you really need to charge in and get to where you need to be right away, or you'll die. There's no way to know that first time you get there. Several of the incredible-machine styled contraptions don't allow you to go slowly and cautiously - and if you don't know the hazards coming you're just going to die. This isn't a bad thing in appropriate doses, but it doesn't mix well with fiddly puzzles.
Weeble.
I've finished it now, and yes, those hell levels were the hardest. Rest assured that I do really like the physics concept, and I'm not posting here to bash the game - I'm trying to provide valid criticism because I want to see it get better. I know this isn't Sonic or Puggsy, and I don't expect the low level of difficulty found in those games.
I enjoy manuevering Gish across the tiny crates hanging from cranes. I enjoy figuring out the puzzles involving blocks and switches. I like figuring out how to use my momentum in those U-shaped pipes on the church level. I like bounding from falling pillar to falling pillar. I like being in the right place doing the right thing at the right time to get the good ending.
I don't enjoy getting killed repeatedly as part of the learning process then being forced to pile those same cubes down that same pipe as last time, just to get back to where I was. I don't enjoy the feeling of lethargy as I try to jump. I don't enjoy losing precious lives because of butterfly effects when an enemy is in just the wrong place, when a rope snaps that wasn't my fault or when Gish simply refuses to crawl from a vertical surface down onto a ceiling. I'm not saying that the game should never kill me, but I want a fair shot to a) see that I'm in danger and b) be able to do something about it.
What would make me happy? Maybe up and down could have a bigger effect on Gish's shape. That way it'd be easier to quickly get the squashing needed to jump. Or perhaps pressing jump when static could squish Gish (anybody ever play Ricochet on the BBC Micro?) and he'd jump when it was released. That would help ensure that enemies at close range were still a threat. Might be messy to implement, but I suppose it's a thought for a sequel.
I'd keep the elaborate puzzles that are high on thinking, low on threat and quite laborious to be just before the boss level. That way you don't need to do the same puzzle you've solved before over and over again, every time you die from the more acrobatics oriented levels.
This one's not even a modification to the game: document the most important feature of being heavy - it makes you far more resistant to being squashed and killed by the various spring-loaded platforms and high-speed U-bends. Perhaps there could also be a marking on the floor - like yellow and black hazard bars, or blood splatters to indicate these potentially dangerous areas, so the player isn't upset when the floor unexpectedly launches him upwards, killing him with the acceleration.
Also, I maintain that there are a number of hazards that you cannot hope to survive the first time you meet them. A number of the areas that spring you up unexpectedly can kill you outright. That room in the church level that completely fills up with the little enemies - I fluked it once by killing them all, but otherwise you really need to charge in and get to where you need to be right away, or you'll die. There's no way to know that first time you get there. Several of the incredible-machine styled contraptions don't allow you to go slowly and cautiously - and if you don't know the hazards coming you're just going to die. This isn't a bad thing in appropriate doses, but it doesn't mix well with fiddly puzzles.
Weeble.
#14
General Discussion / Thoughts of a new player
May 26, 2004, 05:50:13 AM
I bought the game today after playing the demo for a while. I regret to say that it's not been everything I've hoped for, but I'd like to explain why I feel disappointed.
Firstly, before I even got to play, that download system was problematic. I've got a reasonably good ADSL connection, but the download failed 3 times, which is awkward and time-consuming for such a huge file. Is there any particular reason the system disallows download managers?
Next, the game takes about a minute to load to the main menu on my laptop - a Celeron 2.8GHz with almost 512Mb of RAM (64Mb is used by a Radeon Mobility). Is this normal? So far the graphics have been pretty sparse, so I'm wondering what makes the download so huge and the loading time so long. Is it the music?
The menu interface is a bit clunky. Excuseable, but niggling. The versus menu is quite non-intuitive. You want to click on the pictures, not just the text. And it's not immediately obvious what the little 2 and 3 underneath are for. (I know now.)
As for the game, I really feel like I'm struggling to control Gish sometimes. It feels laborious to get him to jump because the first press of the button barely lifts him off the ground. It's a nightmare to get him to crawl around the underside of objects - he keeps falling off unless I go really slowly.
Right now I'm on chapter 3, the 7 planes of hehenna, and I'm finding it very frustrating. Most of the areas I enter kill me for not knowing what to do. I don't like the process of having to die repeatedly to find out what the correct way is to progress.
When I lose a life on the first level of an episode, it's really not worth going on - I'm better off killing Gish until I get to continue with full lives. Perhaps a "restart chapter" option in the menu would be a good idea?
I keep getting hurt by huge amounts of health for impacting with pieces of scenery. I find the beginning of level 3.2 very nasty - assuming I don't fall in the lava at the bottom of the chain of swinging platforms, I get smashed down to about 30 health by getting trapped between the last platform and the wall. Other times I'll get hurt lots just for landing on a relatively narrow platform. Is this all really necessary? There's enough things that kill me outright for the high level of impact damage to be quite over the top.
Also, chapter 3 looks very odd. All the walls are plain brown. Is something broken? There's the occasional nail or skull for decoration, but I'm sure the walls and backgrounds aren't supposed to be a single shade of brown.
Anyway, I'd like to say that I do really love the concept, and the characters look beautiful. The physics model is very impressive. I'll still play the game because I do like it, but I simply feel it doesn't realise its potential. Maybe my opinion will change over time, but I remain cautious.
Regards,
Weeble.
Firstly, before I even got to play, that download system was problematic. I've got a reasonably good ADSL connection, but the download failed 3 times, which is awkward and time-consuming for such a huge file. Is there any particular reason the system disallows download managers?
Next, the game takes about a minute to load to the main menu on my laptop - a Celeron 2.8GHz with almost 512Mb of RAM (64Mb is used by a Radeon Mobility). Is this normal? So far the graphics have been pretty sparse, so I'm wondering what makes the download so huge and the loading time so long. Is it the music?
The menu interface is a bit clunky. Excuseable, but niggling. The versus menu is quite non-intuitive. You want to click on the pictures, not just the text. And it's not immediately obvious what the little 2 and 3 underneath are for. (I know now.)
As for the game, I really feel like I'm struggling to control Gish sometimes. It feels laborious to get him to jump because the first press of the button barely lifts him off the ground. It's a nightmare to get him to crawl around the underside of objects - he keeps falling off unless I go really slowly.
Right now I'm on chapter 3, the 7 planes of hehenna, and I'm finding it very frustrating. Most of the areas I enter kill me for not knowing what to do. I don't like the process of having to die repeatedly to find out what the correct way is to progress.
When I lose a life on the first level of an episode, it's really not worth going on - I'm better off killing Gish until I get to continue with full lives. Perhaps a "restart chapter" option in the menu would be a good idea?
I keep getting hurt by huge amounts of health for impacting with pieces of scenery. I find the beginning of level 3.2 very nasty - assuming I don't fall in the lava at the bottom of the chain of swinging platforms, I get smashed down to about 30 health by getting trapped between the last platform and the wall. Other times I'll get hurt lots just for landing on a relatively narrow platform. Is this all really necessary? There's enough things that kill me outright for the high level of impact damage to be quite over the top.
Also, chapter 3 looks very odd. All the walls are plain brown. Is something broken? There's the occasional nail or skull for decoration, but I'm sure the walls and backgrounds aren't supposed to be a single shade of brown.
Anyway, I'd like to say that I do really love the concept, and the characters look beautiful. The physics model is very impressive. I'll still play the game because I do like it, but I simply feel it doesn't realise its potential. Maybe my opinion will change over time, but I remain cautious.
Regards,
Weeble.
#15
General Discussion / Hate World 3?
June 17, 2004, 05:27:52 PM
Oh, the first warp zone does work like you'd expect. I gave up last time after cramming Gish into a pipe and getting stuck without it working.
Weeble.
Weeble.